[德扑圈] Top set facing donk or 3bet?

ankeeeee

Hand#1HERO utg dealt AA with 130bb. limp (sb was super spewy fishy guy, love topunishthe limper, been open/3bet ton of hands, excepting him to squeeze here)rest fo the player behind limp even with that spewy sb player,6way limping potFLOP Qs3dJhHERO bet 1/2, one mp calls, HU. (MP passive fish, quite high vpip)TURN AdHERO bet 1/2 again, mp player 3bets the pot, (after hero called, pot almost 50bb, hero have 110bb effective)HERO?Decision #1：call, check all the river let vill value himslef, since we almost never had AA here by betting 1/2 on flop and turn, vill may over value his 2par hand or set almost always, and we can avoid lost more chips in case vill had KT for nuts,Decision #2：shoving? if, if we sure villian is capable to call anything like 2pair/set to pay our hand, ofcuz if he really do have the nuts, we just drawing for 10outs,-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hand#2HERO utg+1 dealt QQ with 120bb, open 4x get call by utg limper, (limp call ton of sxxxty hands)HUFLOP Qs3h7cvill donk 1/2, hero just call,TURN Jcvill bets 1/2 again (vill has 30bb left)HERO?Decision #1：call, vill almost always have air like bdfd, or random whatever combo, cuz dont expecting he donk 33/77 at flop, they almost always slow play with there 2rd nuts by check raise or by just calling, give the max chance let him to hang himself, keep the aggression,Decision #2：shoving cuz vill dont have much left, there is a chance vill just give up on river, and if vill indeed holding flush draw, dont c how he can fold it once he bet the turn with this size and effective stack behind, duty for his fd holding--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------不知道大家怎么在这个spot做决定呢? 俺是已经有自己的答案, 只是和朋友探讨这两手牌的时候, 在EV这个维度上, 分别持有不同的意见

amandag

第一手牌turn call，我们是顶set，对手除了可能的顺子没啥能call动我们的allin，JQ都未必愿意和我们打光，turn上我们call，JQ river还可能继续下注

amandag

第二手牌turn allin，对手连续两手donk一般不会啥都没有，中对抽花这种turn也愿意打光，river就没value了

ankeeeee

amandag 发表于 2016-6-8 12:41第二手牌turn allin，对手连续两手donk一般不会啥都没有，中对抽花这种turn也愿意打光，river就没value了 ...

                               
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终于等到回复了, 我个人同意你的看法, 虽然hand#2, 我在turn上的处理是call而已. 有点太greedy, hoping he will jam the rest he left, with worse or continue to bluff,

daniel

amandag 发表于 2016-6-8 12:38第一手牌turn call，我们是顶set，对手除了可能的顺子没啥能call动我们的allin，JQ都未必愿意和我们打光，t ...综合来看，hero在turn上raise 会更好一些，call的话，miss了set以及两对还有superdraw的value，并且河牌会非常被动。如果hero在后位，我更倾向于call一些

Juuuuust

针对第二首牌，个人绝大多数时候肯定会raise回去。我所观察到，绝大部分donk玩家的bet-call概率大于他在河牌的bluff概率。

amandag

daniel 发表于 2016-6-8 13:54综合来看，hero在turn上raise 会更好一些，call的话，miss了set以及两对还有superdraw的value，并且河牌 ...我们在flop的bet表示我们的牌力比Q大， turn上继续bet表示我们不怕A，对手turn上还能re出来基本就是TK，33，少量的JQ/JQdd和极少的A3。从bet size来说 preflop pot 6bb，flop pot 12bb，turn 我们bet 6bb对手raise到32bb（共计50bb），这里我更倾向对手是TK至少33（我们表示的牌力已经是AQ top2，对手如果担心我们是TK一般不会re这么大，JQdd可能都只是call），call turn river出花我们可以block bet，如果我们raise turn 基本是只要对手推回来我们大多数情况是落后的（不要打走比自己小的牌）

daniel

amandag 发表于 2016-6-8 16:48我们在flop的bet表示我们的牌力比Q大， turn上继续bet表示我们不怕A，对手turn上还能re出来基本就是TK，3 ...你可以用软件模拟一下 setA在面对 KT/QQ/JJ/33/QdJd/AQ/AJ 的胜率，打到allin的EV 是比call要高的对手还有可能是KdQd，KdJd，QdTd之类的牌我们turn这里 call，河牌必然是bet/call，check/call，河牌还有很多不愿意看到的牌，比如K，T，方块

ankeeeee

Juuuuust 发表于 2016-6-8 13:57针对第二首牌，个人绝大多数时候肯定会raise回去。我所观察到，绝大部分donk玩家的bet-call概率大于他在河 ...其实, 对于open/3bet的pre flop action, 到了river, 对手差不多刚刚好有一个pot size bet, 我更愿意相信他会bluff的, check fold, 从面子上, 鱼儿也很难接受, 往往视死如归的闭眼推, 做最后的垂死挣扎, 我倒不是很相信他能够迷途知返,你说的情况, 应该在多人池中体现的较多, HU pot上我持有保留意见, 哈哈~当然,我现在想想rarise回去应该是好过call, 假设对手是draw+any pair, 不会bet/fold的, 到turn上的纯air这里不会连续开两枪.对手AcTc,flop bdfd/ turn fd+gutter for the K.

ankeeeee

amandag 发表于 2016-6-8 16:48我们在flop的bet表示我们的牌力比Q大， turn上继续bet表示我们不怕A，对手turn上还能re出来基本就是TK，3 ...cbet flop and turn with 1/2 size, 只是很standard的no-brainer bet, 给对手闭眼click click的single weakish Q的印象, 而不是为了end the hand right there by betting 2/3 or even pot size.turn A并不是有意的为了表达hero 不怕A的意思, 始终保持1/2 size (同时有意的click很快, 虽然不确定对手是否会捕捉我有意制作出来的timing tell+size tell)目的是希望给对手3bet in position, 去利用自己的draw/top pair/whatever holding with have the right equity to 3bet with, 去rep A来攻击我的bet.假设我 bet 1/3, 会显得很fishy,我bet 2/3, 又可能会block掉对手一堆可以semi bluff attack或self-value我的combo的%选择call pot size rarise的原因只有一个,对手是一个处于passive side的鱼宝宝, 假设, 对手是pair+flush draw/2 pair+ (anything but not KT)是否真的会rarise到pot这个size呢?